Comments on: Linear and non-linear learning http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/ networks, languages, and learning 2.0 Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:31:33 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: Vinicio Fallas-sandí http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-1747 Vinicio Fallas-sandí Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:11:34 +0000 http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-1747 Thanks a lot Carroll: I m an English teacher who positively believes in the non linear approach. I ve been a chaos theory researcher and so far I ve been applying non linear techs to facilitate the learning of Enlglish. Guess what ! after a five months English training period my students learn more , faster wihtin a non-squared and non book based learning than those of other teachers.For exmple, I may start a beginners class by helping students to learn the days of the week and maybe ,I may be starting talking about the weather and from that learn the time and from there to another kind of related topic and so on. Thanks a lot Carroll: I m an English teacher who positively believes in the non linear approach. I ve been a chaos theory researcher and so far I ve been applying non linear techs to facilitate the learning of Enlglish. Guess what ! after a five months English training period my students learn more , faster wihtin a non-squared and non book based learning than those of other teachers.For exmple, I may start a beginners class by helping students to learn the days of the week and maybe ,I may be starting talking about the weather and from that learn the time and from there to another kind of related topic and so on.

]]> By: Daniel http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-411 Daniel Wed, 12 Mar 2008 00:57:41 +0000 http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-411 I couldn't understand some parts of this article Linear and non-linear learning, but I guess I just need to check some more resources regarding this, because it sounds interesting. I couldn’t understand some parts of this article Linear and non-linear learning, but I guess I just need to check some more resources regarding this, because it sounds interesting.

]]> By: Ken Carroll http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-335 Ken Carroll Wed, 27 Feb 2008 08:15:45 +0000 http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-335 Bill, I just read your paper and it's excellent.I particularly liked the points about the Emphasis on Individual Learning Processes, and Teachers as Resources and Models. Your observations certainly square with my experience and they could apply in most any learning scenario. I would also be tempted to add some thoughts regarding the use of technology, and particularly the principles behind connectivism. (Since so much of our future learning will migrate to the web, I believe we need a pedagogy that tackles it.) My second instinct here is to ask how you apply this stuff. For me, it's about embedding what we learn into the ecosystem, Community of Practice, or 'learnscapes, whichever term you prefer. Bill,

I just read your paper and it’s excellent.I particularly liked the points about the Emphasis on Individual Learning Processes, and Teachers as Resources and Models. Your observations certainly square with my experience and they could apply in most any learning scenario. I would also be tempted to add some thoughts regarding the use of technology, and particularly the principles behind connectivism. (Since so much of our future learning will migrate to the web, I believe we need a pedagogy that tackles it.) My second instinct here is to ask how you apply this stuff. For me, it’s about embedding what we learn into the ecosystem, Community of Practice, or ‘learnscapes, whichever term you prefer.

]]> By: Bill Harsharger http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-334 Bill Harsharger Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:34:08 +0000 http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-334 I have recently proposed a non-linear model of language learning at the Japan Association of Language Teachers Conference. My paper paper is available at http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df8mx5rb_78g755hr I have recently proposed a non-linear model of language learning at the Japan Association of Language Teachers Conference. My paper paper is available at http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df8mx5rb_78g755hr

]]> By: Claudia http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-186 Claudia Thu, 17 Jan 2008 23:42:23 +0000 http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-186 To me, learning and teaching English (to my mainly Mexican ESL 4th graders) was somewhat easier than learning Hangeul (Korean). Many of the phonemes needed breif practice because it was a Roman alphabet, the spelling rules took 10 minutes, and we were able to review the grammar book 3 times before the year was over. I did not take the book approach of teaching all of the verbs first, then nouns, etc. For me personally, I did not see a system that way and it confused me. So I taught lesson one of each chapter (verbs, nouns, adj., etc) within the week in present I. Then we went back and discussed the simple forms and variations that could happen to each. The third time around we did the entire chapter. I got this method off Nihouse and I don't know if to call it linear or circular but it made sense because I could see structure right away. Meaning had to be derived from reading (2 hour block) and practice was in the form of writing (1 hour block). On the other hand, the Asian languages started rough. There was no way I could discern anything but the last word that they spoke and that was hard to commit to memory. Nothing like the Romance languages. I had to start with phonemes and learning how to "read." If I could relate the sounds to a system than felt better situated. I don't watch the lesson in sequential order, but according to the needs of the day. Overall, you have to put some work in so that a language becomes acquired and usuable, To me, learning and teaching English (to my mainly Mexican ESL 4th graders) was somewhat easier than learning Hangeul (Korean). Many of the phonemes needed breif practice because it was a Roman alphabet, the spelling rules took 10 minutes, and we were able to review the grammar book 3 times before the year was over. I did not take the book approach of teaching all of the verbs first, then nouns, etc. For me personally, I did not see a system that way and it confused me. So I taught lesson one of each chapter (verbs, nouns, adj., etc) within the week in present I. Then we went back and discussed the simple forms and variations that could happen to each. The third time around we did the entire chapter. I got this method off Nihouse and I don’t know if to call it linear or circular but it made sense because I could see structure right away. Meaning had to be derived from reading (2 hour block) and practice was in the form of writing (1 hour block).
On the other hand, the Asian languages started rough. There was no way I could discern anything but the last word that they spoke and that was hard to commit to memory. Nothing like the Romance languages. I had to start with phonemes and learning how to “read.” If I could relate the sounds to a system than felt better situated. I don’t watch the lesson in sequential order, but according to the needs of the day. Overall, you have to put some work in so that a language becomes acquired and usuable,

]]> By: Ken Carroll http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-170 Ken Carroll Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:39:28 +0000 http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-170 Gustaf, I see where you're coming from but you're kind of putting words into my mouth, as it were. I'm not aksing that we all become bohemians, or anything else. I'm suggesting that we have to become more autonomous, given the future that awaits us. I totally agree that too much choice is overwhelming. That's why w've tried to create learning <em>ecosystems </em>with ChinesePod/SpanishPod. These are designed to give guidance and context but also with as much freedom and choice to explore the language as possible - learning on your terms. The community, the practitioners, and the experience of others all provide guidance and motivation for the learners. I believe this works quite well over there and I beleive we will see more of this type of approach in the future. Ken Carroll Gustaf,

I see where you’re coming from but you’re kind of putting words into my mouth, as it were. I’m not aksing that we all become bohemians, or anything else. I’m suggesting that we have to become more autonomous, given the future that awaits us.

I totally agree that too much choice is overwhelming. That’s why w’ve tried to create learning ecosystems with ChinesePod/SpanishPod. These are designed to give guidance and context but also with as much freedom and choice to explore the language as possible - learning on your terms. The community, the practitioners, and the experience of others all provide guidance and motivation for the learners. I believe this works quite well over there and I beleive we will see more of this type of approach in the future.

Ken Carroll

]]> By: Gustaf http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-169 Gustaf Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:15:06 +0000 http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-169 Ah, I didn't mean that you should be told what to do, rather how to do it. You have probably heard of Pimsleur and simlar courses on tape. While perhaps a bit boring at times, they have the very important advantage of not giving the learner an excuse to linger or get lost on the way, beacause you there is no room for choices at all. It is like weight training, the hard part is not lifting the weights, but being motivated, overcoming the psychological barriers. If you always know what comes next, it is much easier to keep going. Some people with particularly low motivation use personal trainers that tell them what to do. Now I am not saying that the flow of the course should be predetermined, or not take the individual learner into account, I am just saying that you shouldn't be presented with too many choices at each point. Ideally it should be like having a personal trainer, or a personal language coach. "So now that we have read this text, let's practice writing the characters". The user will otherwise be at loss, he will not be sure of how much time to put into each particular exercise, in which order to do them etc. This state of mind is very tiring, and will eventually lead to him quitting the course. By the way, I don't think that the vast majority of people are even interested in becoming autonomous, and I am not sure how a society of millions of creative bohemians would work. Certainly all societies to date have been based on a very large base of ordinary workers that don't ask too many questions. But be that as it may, the question here only concerns how to produce an effective learning tool. Ah, I didn’t mean that you should be told what to do, rather how to do it. You have probably heard of Pimsleur and simlar courses on tape. While perhaps a bit boring at times, they have the very important advantage of not giving the learner an excuse to linger or get lost on the way, beacause you there is no room for choices at all. It is like weight training, the hard part is not lifting the weights, but being motivated, overcoming the psychological barriers. If you always know what comes next, it is much easier to keep going. Some people with particularly low motivation use personal trainers that tell them what to do.

Now I am not saying that the flow of the course should be predetermined, or not take the individual learner into account, I am just saying that you shouldn’t be presented with too many choices at each point. Ideally it should be like having a personal trainer, or a personal language coach. “So now that we have read this text, let’s practice writing the characters”. The user will otherwise be at loss, he will not be sure of how much time to put into each particular exercise, in which order to do them etc. This state of mind is very tiring, and will eventually lead to him quitting the course.

By the way, I don’t think that the vast majority of people are even interested in becoming autonomous, and I am not sure how a society of millions of creative bohemians would work. Certainly all societies to date have been based on a very large base of ordinary workers that don’t ask too many questions. But be that as it may, the question here only concerns how to produce an effective learning tool.

]]> By: Ken Carroll http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-168 Ken Carroll Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:53:36 +0000 http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-168 Gustaf, I didn't make the claim that ChinesePod is either revolutionary or optimal. Not sure where that came from. I think we've been all trained to 'always have someone telling us what to do', but I most certainly don't think it has to be like that. Being told what to do isn't very motivating for many people. But even more importantly, learner autonomy isn't a nicety - we all have to become independent, autonomous learners in a future where there are terabytes of the data coming at us daily. We simply don't have the luxury of waiting for the authorities somehwere to map out what we should be learning and then to push us into doing so. Those days are coming to and end. Ken Carroll Gustaf,

I didn’t make the claim that ChinesePod is either revolutionary or optimal. Not sure where that came from.

I think we’ve been all trained to ‘always have someone telling us what to do’, but I most certainly don’t think it has to be like that. Being told what to do isn’t very motivating for many people. But even more importantly, learner autonomy isn’t a nicety - we all have to become independent, autonomous learners in a future where there are terabytes of the data coming at us daily. We simply don’t have the luxury of waiting for the authorities somehwere to map out what we should be learning and then to push us into doing so. Those days are coming to and end.

Ken Carroll

]]> By: Gustaf http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-167 Gustaf Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:40:30 +0000 http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-167 Ken, while ChinesePod seems pretty good, I am not sure it is that revolutionary, or optimal, as you seem to think. I think it suffers from the same problem many other new-fanled methos of self-study suffer from. namely that it is too non-linear. That's right, I said non-linear. But I mean it in a slightly different sense. The point is simply that the more linearly you progress from unit to unit, the easier it is to keep studying. In a classroom setting, it makes sense to have a textbook, tapes, quizes, conversations etc because you always have someone telling you what to do. Now in self-study, the biggest enemy is always, always your inherent lazyness. With enough motivation, you could learn any language with aid of just a dictionary, they are usually filled with phrases, rudimentary grammar and of course lots of words. The problem is that you don't know where to start, so you probably give up before long. If instead you always have someone telling you what to do next, staying motivated (the one prerequisite for success) is so much easier. IF you supply the user with, say, five different ways to study and reinforce what they learnt, they will just get lost if they have to navigate between them on their own. On the other hand, while I am personally very interested in theoretical grammar, I don't think that teaching grammar is conducive to learning a language, other than indirectly. As long as you consciously decline and conjugate in your head before opening you mouth, you don't really speak the language. The actual task you need to undertake is to reinforce patterns of speach, subconsciously associate certain tempora and grammatical persons with certain endings etc. But going by way of consciously learning and understanding (the simplified rules that we call) the grammar of the language is taking a long and completely unnecessary detour. Just look at children. Ken, while ChinesePod seems pretty good, I am not sure it is that revolutionary, or optimal, as you seem to think. I think it suffers from the same problem many other new-fanled methos of self-study suffer from. namely that it is too non-linear. That’s right, I said non-linear. But I mean it in a slightly different sense. The point is simply that the more linearly you progress from unit to unit, the easier it is to keep studying. In a classroom setting, it makes sense to have a textbook, tapes, quizes, conversations etc because you always have someone telling you what to do. Now in self-study, the biggest enemy is always, always your inherent lazyness. With enough motivation, you could learn any language with aid of just a dictionary, they are usually filled with phrases, rudimentary grammar and of course lots of words. The problem is that you don’t know where to start, so you probably give up before long. If instead you always have someone telling you what to do next, staying motivated (the one prerequisite for success) is so much easier. IF you supply the user with, say, five different ways to study and reinforce what they learnt, they will just get lost if they have to navigate between them on their own.

On the other hand, while I am personally very interested in theoretical grammar, I don’t think that teaching grammar is conducive to learning a language, other than indirectly. As long as you consciously decline and conjugate in your head before opening you mouth, you don’t really speak the language. The actual task you need to undertake is to reinforce patterns of speach, subconsciously associate certain tempora and grammatical persons with certain endings etc. But going by way of consciously learning and understanding (the simplified rules that we call) the grammar of the language is taking a long and completely unnecessary detour. Just look at children.

]]> By: admin http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-156 admin Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:02:50 +0000 http://ken-carroll.com/2007/12/13/linear-and-non-linear-learning/#comment-156 Great comments here. I'll have to get back to Michael. He has a habit of asking questions that can't be answered easily - and long may he contiue at that! I've been off the scene for a while but I hope to get back into the big debate soon. Ken Carroll Great comments here. I’ll have to get back to Michael. He has a habit of asking questions that can’t be answered easily - and long may he contiue at that!

I’ve been off the scene for a while but I hope to get back into the big debate soon.

Ken Carroll

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