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	<title>Comments on: Culture and TCFL</title>
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	<description>SELF-DIRECTION AND THE NEW LEADERSHIP SKILLS</description>
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		<title>By: cjacques</title>
		<link>http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-13837</link>
		<dc:creator>cjacques</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 03:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-13837</guid>
		<description>Quite an interesting article.  Alas, I can relate to the experience of Dave&#039;s children; I also didn&#039;t start learning German until junior high (and wasn&#039;t required to learn a foreign language until high school).
I was fortunate enough to study Chinese at Northeast Normal University in Changchun （东北师范大学）and foudn that my teachers taught in a manner accessable to westerners, not the &#039;listen and memorize, don&#039;t ask questions&#039; method that might be referred here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite an interesting article.  Alas, I can relate to the experience of Dave&#8217;s children; I also didn&#8217;t start learning German until junior high (and wasn&#8217;t required to learn a foreign language until high school).<br />
I was fortunate enough to study Chinese at Northeast Normal University in Changchun （东北师范大学）and foudn that my teachers taught in a manner accessable to westerners, not the &#8216;listen and memorize, don&#8217;t ask questions&#8217; method that might be referred here.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-13783</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 05:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-13783</guid>
		<description>I think the newspaper article did bring up some very valid points. There are large numbers of Chinese living here and many children of recent immigrants who are beginning to lose the language, also children of not so recent immigrants who are trying to retrieve the language.
 NZ and China have recently negotiated a free trade agreement and many New Zealand companies , like other countries, now source much of their production from China. So you would expect university and private institutions to be full right? I&#039;m sure there are plenty of good intentions but many drop out at a relatively early stage even if they attempt serious study at all.
I am very fortunate to be able to study in a private institution with a teacher educated in both China and New Zealand and I can&#039;t speak highly enough of the way the classes are structured. I taught part time in a tertiary institution for many years and truly appreciate the approach she has developed. But it is still an uphill battle for the school to retain students, I&#039;m not sure traditional teaching techniques have much to do with it.
Its a real pity as I have studied French and Italian before and I didn&#039;t find them any less difficult than Mandarin. There is though a hard core of students, many who have spent time in China who are beginning to appreciate her ( and Chinese Pods!) efforts.
My nephew has been part of a very successful programme in Japanese study developed in a relatively remote country school, and Japanese programmes at high school are quite extensive here, often assisted and advised by Japanese companies. their sponsorship has gone on for some time I believe
It is true that Kiwis have had no reason to learn other languages as it has been a monolingual country (apart from Maori, most people will know a couple of hundred words at least) for many years, The main countries to the east( US/ Canada) and west( australia) also are relatively monolingual - it comes as a shock travelling beyond these places for many Kiwis that the whole world doesn&#039;t speak english!
 With very recently more tv and radio programming in Mandarin ( and other languages) it has become relatively accessible .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the newspaper article did bring up some very valid points. There are large numbers of Chinese living here and many children of recent immigrants who are beginning to lose the language, also children of not so recent immigrants who are trying to retrieve the language.<br />
 NZ and China have recently negotiated a free trade agreement and many New Zealand companies , like other countries, now source much of their production from China. So you would expect university and private institutions to be full right? I&#8217;m sure there are plenty of good intentions but many drop out at a relatively early stage even if they attempt serious study at all.<br />
I am very fortunate to be able to study in a private institution with a teacher educated in both China and New Zealand and I can&#8217;t speak highly enough of the way the classes are structured. I taught part time in a tertiary institution for many years and truly appreciate the approach she has developed. But it is still an uphill battle for the school to retain students, I&#8217;m not sure traditional teaching techniques have much to do with it.<br />
Its a real pity as I have studied French and Italian before and I didn&#8217;t find them any less difficult than Mandarin. There is though a hard core of students, many who have spent time in China who are beginning to appreciate her ( and Chinese Pods!) efforts.<br />
My nephew has been part of a very successful programme in Japanese study developed in a relatively remote country school, and Japanese programmes at high school are quite extensive here, often assisted and advised by Japanese companies. their sponsorship has gone on for some time I believe<br />
It is true that Kiwis have had no reason to learn other languages as it has been a monolingual country (apart from Maori, most people will know a couple of hundred words at least) for many years, The main countries to the east( US/ Canada) and west( australia) also are relatively monolingual &#8211; it comes as a shock travelling beyond these places for many Kiwis that the whole world doesn&#8217;t speak english!<br />
 With very recently more tv and radio programming in Mandarin ( and other languages) it has become relatively accessible .</p>
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		<title>By: Christoph</title>
		<link>http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-2103</link>
		<dc:creator>Christoph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 15:14:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-2103</guid>
		<description>Hey there Ken, I read your take on this with great interest.  A quick question for everyone...how is it possible to obtain TCFL certification?  It seems that the annual exam in China has been removed from the calendar indefinitely (since 2005).  If there is such a demand internationally for learning the language, then why is it nearly impossible for young Chinese to become qualified teachers?

I&#039;m not particularly looking for the answer to this question, but do wonder if anyone can help with information on how to get TCFL accreditation, as many of my students in China are hopeful of one day entering this field.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey there Ken, I read your take on this with great interest.  A quick question for everyone&#8230;how is it possible to obtain TCFL certification?  It seems that the annual exam in China has been removed from the calendar indefinitely (since 2005).  If there is such a demand internationally for learning the language, then why is it nearly impossible for young Chinese to become qualified teachers?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not particularly looking for the answer to this question, but do wonder if anyone can help with information on how to get TCFL accreditation, as many of my students in China are hopeful of one day entering this field.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Ferguson</title>
		<link>http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-504</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Ferguson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-504</guid>
		<description>Well, having said that, I wondered what the actual numbers might be...

In the first part of &lt;a href=&quot;http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2007/minoritytrends/tables/table_12d.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this summary&lt;/a&gt; from the National Center for Education Statistics, of high school grads in 2004, 15.5% had no foreign language, 16.1% had one year or less, and 33.9% had two years.  Just shy of two-thirds, with two years or less.  

On the other end of the scale, 5.4% of grads had advance placement levels in foreign language.

(Tangentially, a report in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/education/20graduation.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;New York Times &lt;/a&gt;earlier this week told about many states having inflated their  graduation rates, which may be as low as 70% nationwide.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, having said that, I wondered what the actual numbers might be&#8230;</p>
<p>In the first part of <a href="http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2007/minoritytrends/tables/table_12d.asp" rel="nofollow">this summary</a> from the National Center for Education Statistics, of high school grads in 2004, 15.5% had no foreign language, 16.1% had one year or less, and 33.9% had two years.  Just shy of two-thirds, with two years or less.  </p>
<p>On the other end of the scale, 5.4% of grads had advance placement levels in foreign language.</p>
<p>(Tangentially, a report in the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/education/20graduation.html" rel="nofollow">New York Times </a>earlier this week told about many states having inflated their  graduation rates, which may be as low as 70% nationwide.)</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Ferguson</title>
		<link>http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-503</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Ferguson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-503</guid>
		<description>Ken, my own kids are long since out of high school, but when my youngest was in seventh grade (around age 12), he was able to take an &quot;intro to languages&quot; class.  This course spent about 9 weeks on each of four languages, sort of dipping toes into those linguistic lakes.

This in the Fairfax, Virginia public schools, regarded as one of the best overall systems in the U.S.

Ironically, the previous summer, he&#039;d gotten the language bug on his own.  He and I picked out a beginner&#039;s book for Latin (his idea), and within two weeks, he was able to translate an entire page in the (presumably fictionalized) life of young Horatius.  

Taking a highly engaging approach, the book told of the boy&#039;s world, including his troubles with the bully Decimus, who unwisely mouthed off to the teacher.  &lt;i&gt;Decimus durus est, sed stultus&lt;/i&gt; -- Decimus is strong, but dumb.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken, my own kids are long since out of high school, but when my youngest was in seventh grade (around age 12), he was able to take an &#8220;intro to languages&#8221; class.  This course spent about 9 weeks on each of four languages, sort of dipping toes into those linguistic lakes.</p>
<p>This in the Fairfax, Virginia public schools, regarded as one of the best overall systems in the U.S.</p>
<p>Ironically, the previous summer, he&#8217;d gotten the language bug on his own.  He and I picked out a beginner&#8217;s book for Latin (his idea), and within two weeks, he was able to translate an entire page in the (presumably fictionalized) life of young Horatius.  </p>
<p>Taking a highly engaging approach, the book told of the boy&#8217;s world, including his troubles with the bully Decimus, who unwisely mouthed off to the teacher.  <i>Decimus durus est, sed stultus</i> &#8212; Decimus is strong, but dumb.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Carroll</title>
		<link>http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-481</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Carroll</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 09:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-481</guid>
		<description>Dave,

I think that age definitely impacts learning and certainly language learning. Generally speaking, the earlier you start a second language the better, though there is much disagreement on how and when that effect really works. I hadn&#039;t realized that before high school, most American kids get little language education. That would indeed explain a lot!

Ken</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave,</p>
<p>I think that age definitely impacts learning and certainly language learning. Generally speaking, the earlier you start a second language the better, though there is much disagreement on how and when that effect really works. I hadn&#8217;t realized that before high school, most American kids get little language education. That would indeed explain a lot!</p>
<p>Ken</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Ferguson</title>
		<link>http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-472</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Ferguson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 15:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-472</guid>
		<description>My first visit here, but not the last.  Has anyone looked at what difference the age of the learner has on optimal methodology for learning?

I&#039;ve been reading a lot about the brain and the neural processes that occur prior to, say, age 10 or 15.  There&#039;s still not that much language instruction in the U.S. prior to high school (ages 14 - 18), which means even for western languages with structure similar to English, students are starting with something of a handicap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My first visit here, but not the last.  Has anyone looked at what difference the age of the learner has on optimal methodology for learning?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been reading a lot about the brain and the neural processes that occur prior to, say, age 10 or 15.  There&#8217;s still not that much language instruction in the U.S. prior to high school (ages 14 &#8211; 18), which means even for western languages with structure similar to English, students are starting with something of a handicap.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-354</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-354</guid>
		<description>Sounds like Nora has bought into the instrumental reasoning for learning a language hook, line and sinker. The reasons she used works well in China but it ain&#039;t gonna fly among many of the young in English speaking countries (yet).

There has to be something very intrinsic to the lesson that makes learning compelling. Fun works. Wanting to please an adult work can work. Making friends in the language works. Singing works. Being successful and getting praise works. Playing games work. 

Telling young kids that they need to learn a foreign language because they will get better jobs goes over like a lead balloon with most young kids. Going into the classroom with that understanding of motivation results in exactly what you observed; an attitude on the part of the teachers that the students are lazy and the parents are uncommitted. 

I&#039;d recommend that this teacher watch the movie Patch Adams and report back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like Nora has bought into the instrumental reasoning for learning a language hook, line and sinker. The reasons she used works well in China but it ain&#8217;t gonna fly among many of the young in English speaking countries (yet).</p>
<p>There has to be something very intrinsic to the lesson that makes learning compelling. Fun works. Wanting to please an adult work can work. Making friends in the language works. Singing works. Being successful and getting praise works. Playing games work. </p>
<p>Telling young kids that they need to learn a foreign language because they will get better jobs goes over like a lead balloon with most young kids. Going into the classroom with that understanding of motivation results in exactly what you observed; an attitude on the part of the teachers that the students are lazy and the parents are uncommitted. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d recommend that this teacher watch the movie Patch Adams and report back.</p>
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		<title>By: KP</title>
		<link>http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-344</link>
		<dc:creator>KP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 10:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-344</guid>
		<description>Luckily my high school Chinese classes were taught by a lively red-haired American lady who was anything but traditional. She would jump around the classroom and have us tell the silliest stories we could think of in Chinese (elephants wearing 饺子 patterned underwear, Chinese leaders riding lobsters to install the biggest toilet in the world in the 黄河， 等等） I think if it wasn&#039;t for her I would have been unmotivated and bored.  Of course, when I went to University it was a completely different story - very traditional teachers - but by that time I was interested enough in the language to stick with it and actually somewhat enjoy a more &quot;traditional&quot; approach (strange.. i know...but i thought it was cool and helpful how my teacher would tell us the different components of a character, what they meant in ancient times, which radical held meaning and which one was for sound. But I won&#039;t lie. I still missed my high school method.) 

But I really feel bad for those students who start out with boring traditional methods and learn to be afraid of Chinese instead of chilling out and having fun with it first.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luckily my high school Chinese classes were taught by a lively red-haired American lady who was anything but traditional. She would jump around the classroom and have us tell the silliest stories we could think of in Chinese (elephants wearing 饺子 patterned underwear, Chinese leaders riding lobsters to install the biggest toilet in the world in the 黄河， 等等） I think if it wasn&#8217;t for her I would have been unmotivated and bored.  Of course, when I went to University it was a completely different story &#8211; very traditional teachers &#8211; but by that time I was interested enough in the language to stick with it and actually somewhat enjoy a more &#8220;traditional&#8221; approach (strange.. i know&#8230;but i thought it was cool and helpful how my teacher would tell us the different components of a character, what they meant in ancient times, which radical held meaning and which one was for sound. But I won&#8217;t lie. I still missed my high school method.) </p>
<p>But I really feel bad for those students who start out with boring traditional methods and learn to be afraid of Chinese instead of chilling out and having fun with it first.</p>
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		<title>By: chris</title>
		<link>http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-342</link>
		<dc:creator>chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:42:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ken-carroll.com/2008/02/26/culture-and-tcfl/#comment-342</guid>
		<description>Editing the above, just listened to a couple of new imandarinpod podcasts understood first time, 90% of the content required no thought whatsoever most of the remaining 10% just needed a little concentration, I know they speak on the slow side but it is all in Chinese. I&#039;ll try some Advanced Cpod lessons again. 

Also the example above was derived from the context of talking to Westerners I have never yet felt like telling  a Chinese person that traditional methods are useless (I don&#039;t feel that would be advisable most of the time). I have spoken recently to some younger Chinese though that have different attitudes for example agreeing that initially it is pointless for Westerners to learn to handwrite Hanzi (one, an engineer admitted that she sometimes struggles to handwrite after using a computer for so long). 

These days if I meet a Chinese person I am invariably asked how long I lived in China. Either that or they casually talk to me for a little while in Chinese before suddenly registering surprise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Editing the above, just listened to a couple of new imandarinpod podcasts understood first time, 90% of the content required no thought whatsoever most of the remaining 10% just needed a little concentration, I know they speak on the slow side but it is all in Chinese. I&#8217;ll try some Advanced Cpod lessons again. </p>
<p>Also the example above was derived from the context of talking to Westerners I have never yet felt like telling  a Chinese person that traditional methods are useless (I don&#8217;t feel that would be advisable most of the time). I have spoken recently to some younger Chinese though that have different attitudes for example agreeing that initially it is pointless for Westerners to learn to handwrite Hanzi (one, an engineer admitted that she sometimes struggles to handwrite after using a computer for so long). </p>
<p>These days if I meet a Chinese person I am invariably asked how long I lived in China. Either that or they casually talk to me for a little while in Chinese before suddenly registering surprise.</p>
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