Language and social distance
Most traditonal language teaching focused on grammar, tests, and structures - the forms, in other words - often to the exclusion of the way that people actually spoke the target language. This practice remains very much the focus of language teaching in China.
The structural approach contrasts with communicative language teaching (CLT). CLT goes beyond structures to look at how language functions: as a tool for communication in real-world situations. CLT is therefore empirical and concerned with function as well as form.
Knowing the structures alone will not afford you a natural communicative ability in a new language. You have to know how people actually speak. There are endless grammatical ways you could express even the simplest thing in English, but just because a sentence is grammatically correct, it doesn’t mean it is something that native speakers would ever say. In fact, using grammar to generate odd sentences can create odd effects. Native speakers of English tend to draw from set phrases and lexical chunks throughout communication. Word choice depends on your social purpose, and subtle changes in word choice can make a big difference the social meaning you convey. The subtlety works because these phrases have acquired cultural connotations that native speakers can read.
[Poor, or inappropriate word choice is actually a greater barrier to communication than grammar, and the best communicators are not necessarily those who construct the best sentences. I’ve seen this time after time at my language schools here in Shanghai.]
Another apect of the problem is using over-formalized English i.e. the type of English that is taught in schools in China. This tends to create a social distance, even where both parties are seeking to bond. The process is unconscious, but failure to adopt the conventions of a given social group can suggest an unwillingness to enter into it. I’ve observed this in the way that Chinese speakers of English sometimes use the language, particularly at the early stages of fluency. Having studied only the structures of English (and often through a process of memorization) many of them adopt the overly formal idiom of the textbook (written by Chinese professors who may never have spoken the language). I’ve even seen people memorize phrases to use at informal social events. This strategy tends to send all sorts of formality signals and creates an atmosphere that is a block to closer contact. This phenomenon is more acute amongst men and I beleive is the reason why bonding between Chinese and western men tends to end at the workplace. (Most of the wesntern men I know here do not to socialize much with Chinese men outside the work context.)
Ken Carroll
May 18th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Most of the clues to this type of thing can be found by being observant to how your own language works, there is a huge “clue stick” but people don’t’ seem to be prepared to hit themselves with it.
Once a Chinese girl on the forum asked a simple question about how to express something in English to an American guy she was about to meet in the park for the first time. A bunch of native English speakers stepped up and gave some sentences (argued a bit in the process). The end result result was grossly over formal and stilted, very unlikely to convey what she was trying to express. When this “obvious?” error was pointed out everybody admitted that they would never say anything like that face to face (why was that the advice they offered then).
Occasionally I say something “stupid” like “sometimes you can pronounce a word too correctly”. Yet from my own observations with my own language, foreigners speaking my own language, my attempting to speak Chinese and finally raising this with Chinese speakers I could write an essay on this alone.
If you are passionate about trees then there is only so much you can learn from books or isolated examples planted in parks, you have to take your notebook and open mind into a living breathing forest.
Before teaching a bunch of people a single word of new language perhaps we should find out if they think that their own language is similar spoken and written (a good starting point), and all those other things that will open them to the experiance.
May 18th, 2008 at 5:34 am
Ken,
I agree with a lot you said but I felt you were subtly placing a greater importance on OUTPUT than INPUT as the cause of miscommunication. IMHO to connect with foreigners you should always strive to understand a great deal before you can ever expect to be completely understood.
Moreover purely linguistic understanding MUST be both lexical and grammatical in nature. In fact, it is often very difficult to separate where lexis ends and grammar begins and surely both are important to understanding meaning in a foreign language.
I agree that a failure of English teaching in China, insofar as communication is the goal, is to focus on asking students to regurgitate preformed, context empty OUTPUT. And when it comes time to study INPUT students end up studying asynchronous written input (i.e. books) which is the most socially impoverished way to engage with INPUT.
Overall I find your surging interest in OUTPUT to be of interest because I believe that it is output that really engages us and gets us involved emotionally with a new language. It could be that input (and its direct by-product- understanding) is more important in connecting socially in a foreign milieu but it is OUTPUT which challenges us most and to which we dedicate ourselves hardest in learning a language. OUTPUT is, in the final analysis, the point at which we actually put ourselves “out there” for social critique.
But I would argue that when we “understand” each other our opportunities to connect socially, emotionally and sympathetically increase. My problem with your argument about men is that for whatever reason I don’t think adult men really have the inclination to understand each other to the degree that women do (or women and men). It isn’t about words per-se, it is mostly about intentions.
May 18th, 2008 at 9:25 am
I agree with Michael’s comment about output (which I read as “speaking and being understood”) as the thing taht engages us in a new language. Obviously, that’s tied closely to “hearing and understanding,” and both imply either a topic or a setting that matters.
For myself, I find that in live conversations with French speakers, I become energized and animated when the person just seems easy to talk with, and also when we share a genuine interest in the topic(s). I simultaneously plunge ahead (not worrying too much about the ideal vocabulary and grammar) and seem to retrieve better what I’ve learned.
As to the relevance you mention, Ken, there’s nothing like interaction with native speakers to help a learner figure out that no one really says X in situation Y.
Are you familiar with the incomparable English as She is Spoke? As Pedro Carolino himself said, “He speak the french very well. Tough he is German, he speak so much well italyan, french, spanish and english, that among the Italyans, they believe him Italyan, he speak the frenche as the Frenches himselves. The Spanishesmen believe him Spanishing, and the Englishes, Englishman. It is difficult to enjoy well so much several languages.”
May 19th, 2008 at 8:12 am
Hi Ken,
a never ending quest, and it goes both ways…
I don’t know how often I encountered the situation that I asked myself: “Can I really use that expression in written communication?” (with the answer often being a plain: “No”). Or that I looked for terms I thought to fit in perfectly in Google for validation and only found them in a “Dictionary of complicated words”.
But English is fairly easy from a German standpoint. Often you can guess the degree of formailty based on word length or roots (latin / french / germanic).
Not so with Chinese. Some of the new vocab I learned at CPod are regarded purely colloquial, never to be used in written language, although there are no clues whatsoever why that is the case (recent example: 指不定). If this is not discussed during the lesson than you need to rely on luck…
The native feeling will never come.
But it might be an idea to not only present the naked vocab as a list, but unotated with meta-data like “degree of formality”, “context”, “regional confinement”…
May 21st, 2008 at 12:36 am
[…] lengua y la distancia social Posted Mayo 21, 2008 Es el título de este post que Ken Carroll escribe en su blog Here comes everybody (Ken Carroll on networks, languages and […]
May 22nd, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Thanks to you and JP, I have decided to start my own blog with comments about language and language learning. I’m nowhere close to where you and JP are with things and I know it’s a shameless plug, but here it is:
Personal: http://orkelm.wordpress.com/
Future phonetics classes: http://spn346.wordpress.com/
BTW, when I gave my talk at UCLA a couple of weeks ago and I gave a whole bunch of SpanishPod vouchers to those in attendance. Hope you get some movement from it.
Orlando
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Chris,
I think your first point is crucial. There are patterns behind how we convey social meaning. We learn them through exposure to the natural spoken form of the language and we soon figure out that many can be applied to different contexts. I hope to write a lot more about this in the near future. I think the example you give of the girl on the forums is also an excellent one.
Michael,
Some very good points here. I do see output (or OUTPUT if you prefer) as critical, but for reasons that would take a full post to explain. I think we’re on the same page, though.
As to male bonding, I think that there is tons of male bonding in the pubs and on the golf course around here, but little of it is between western guys and Chinese guys. Men bond differently than women but they do just as much of it.
Henning, your English is incredible. You’ve got your literal meaning, your functional meaning, and your social meaning all spot on here! I think that when it comes to Chinese a certain amount of commentary is definitely useful, for precisely the reasons you mention.
Dave,
Incredibly, I had never heard of that book, but it’s a real treasure. I’m going to spen the rest of the afternoon on it!
Orlando,
That’s great news. I’ll head over there after I look into English As She is Spoke.
Ken
May 23rd, 2008 at 2:11 am
For the mildly curious: Pedro Carolino’s 1855 book, The New guide of the Conversation in Portuguese and English, was apparently intended as a guide for Portuguese speakers traveling in English-speaking countries.
Mostly, it reads as though Carolino had a Portuguese-French dictionary and a French-English dictionary, but almost no useful knowledge of English.
It’s available via Google, though I treasure my Dover Press edition as the greatest value I’ve ever gotten for $2.95.
Today being the 23rd, here’s the text from p. 23:
For to wish the good morning.
How does your father do?
He is very well.
I am very delight of it. Were is it?
I shall come back soon, I was no came that to know how you are.
For make a visit in the morning.
Is your master at home?
Yes, sir.
Is it up.
May 23rd, 2008 at 3:55 am
[…] Carroll (among other things, co-founder of the Chinese Pod language-learning site) wrote about language and social distance — for example, how traditional language study can leave the student with formal and even […]
May 29th, 2008 at 4:05 am
A few things immediately spring to mind as I read through the initial post and the comments that follow. (Note: Please replace English with whatever non-Chinese language you prefer, I don’t intend to be English centric, it’s just that I speak English.)
1. A common thing I find when speaking mandarin with native speakers, who live in an English speaking area, is that they often need to “switch” their brains in to mandarin-mode to understand what I am saying. This is something many other people, whom I have spoken with, have commented about also. I’m not sure how much it occurs in the reverse context as I do not live in a mandarin speaking area. Whether it is a phenomenon that only occurs in this EnglishSpeaker-to-ChineseSpeaker direction or not, it is still a valid language barrier which makes me less likely to attempt speaking mandarin to someone in the same situation again. Until you explain that you are trying to learn mandarin, the other person has to consciously make that “switch” to processing mandarin. It creates a social barrier between the person willing/wanting to engage in the other person’s native language.
2. The emphasis on certain words in a sentence structure has a direct correlation to the final message as seen in the following examples:
That pen is too expensive.
THAT pen is too expensive.
That PEN is too expensive.
That pen IS too expensive.
That pen is TOO expensive.
That pen is too EXPENSIVE.
And just to be fair, a Chinese example:
那支笔太贵 - That pen is too expensive.
那支笔是太贵 - That pen IS too expensive.
Unless the speaker places emphasis (or no emphasis at all) on the correct word, it can create a barrier that is not perceived by the speaker and could potentially offend the listener without the speaker’s intention to do so.
3. Inflections vs. Tones: This may seem like a very obvious observation, and it is sort of related to #2, but it’s yet another example of how easily an incorrectly spoken sentence can infer the incorrect meaning and create further distance between the speaker and the listener. For the English speaker, inflections are used to emphasise, create questions, statements and so on. In Chinese, tones are used to differentiate between exclusive meanings of basic sounds.
There are so many things to get past to close the distance socially, and this is just at the basic language level without taking into account social statuses and other factors that grossly affect the judgement of both the speaker and the listener in every situation that they happen to be in.
Seems I’ve made this post into a book-length reply.. sorry about that but I am really passionate about social sciences and sociology.
May 31st, 2008 at 8:53 am
Light, I think those are all valid points. If I understand your mode-switch correctly, I think the same thing likely applies whenever people are changing between native-language and second-language mode.
My notion (and that’s all it is) is that the mental wiring for your native language is so deep and so internalized that it seems like the natural way to speak. A second language learned after childhood is almost guaranteed to be not be so deeply wired. So your Mandarin speakers who’ve been using English in an English-speaking area do have to make a shift.
In a much simpler area, I’ve driven standard-transmission cars for nearly 30 years. Of course, I can drive an automatic as well — but in semi-automatic situations, I find myself reaching for the clutch or the gearshift, because those are the skills most deeply wired.
I do think there must be compensations or considerations that the average person allows when dealing with a non-native speaker of that person’s native language. Does that help close the social distance a bit?
July 17th, 2008 at 6:12 am
Thanks for a thoughtful post, Ken. I have also posted on similar topics on behalf of Livemocha here and here. I think you are articulating the way that new interactive technologies will approach language learning: with heavy reliance on social purpose and context, both of which can be easily collected as inputs from any truly fluent or native speaker.
I’d certainly appreciate any comments from you on what I’ve posited thus far on the topic.
ciao,
Clint
March 16th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Ken,
I’m a Chinesepoddie and sometime ago requested that you consider Irishpod.
The response was polite and clear , that Irishpod was not on the current radar.
I’ve just happened on your blog and thought I’d contact you again in this arena. Not seeing a direct link to email you I’ve chosen this related blog entry.
It’s pleasing to see an Irish guy achieve so much in the language learning area. It strikes me that having gone through the debacle that is formal Irish teaching in the Irish education system you would of course have great incite into how bad, bad language teaching can be. I’m in the same boat of course. Having picked up several languages since my leaving cert, I too can see, oh so clearly, how important it is to approach language acquisition with a real world perspective.
I am so pleased to have found Chinesepod. Its what the web was invented for. And your team have done a fantastic job in giving language learning its natural home.
Sadly I am now in the situation where I can power on with my Chinese learning while having to suffer the still pitiful teaching of Irish to my five year old daughter. As you know it takes up a massive chunk of the curriculum for Irish school children, who by and large still come out 13 years later without a conversational grasp.
The current solution is a new found craze for Gael Scoil’s , the teaching of all subjects through Irish. (This is massive cultural overkill IMO)
In Ireland you have a completely captive audience of every school kid from age 4 to 18. Currently there is no Irish learning resource online, and it seems that no plans are even being drawn up to create one.
In the last couple of years Broadband has arrived on these shores, and by 2010 will be available to all.
The time is ripe. So Ireland is really only discovering the www now.
May I grovel.
Please please please consider an Irishpod, do it for my daughter and for the sons and daughters of all who still languish in your motherland. And if you can’t or won’t then please help me to create Irishpod.
All kidding aside, I think it is a great opportunity to move Ireland forward in more general terms of online education. Not to mention modern pedagogy.
IT use in schools would really benefit with this “killer app”, to lead the way.
Have a think about it anyway, please. I have a few colleagues (technical guys) and Irish teacher friends here who are looking to give something back, and we’d really like to help with Irishpod if you are willing to help us.
regards
robin
April 9th, 2009 at 7:38 am
Someone else wants Irishpod, huh? I thought I’d chime in and say that I also am completely and shamelessly begging you guys to do an Irishpod. Truly, the desire for this is out there. The money is out there. The enthusiasm. Is there anything we can do to convince you guys that this would be wonderful and lucrative?
August 7th, 2009 at 2:43 am
They say that language is the doorway to a culture, that to really understand the language is to get inside the mind of the country or culture. But who’s mind do you get in learning English? It is so widespread that it is diversifying itself! Learning English is not the doorway to any specific culture, unless learned within the country.